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Nah, this is some “both sides are bad” bullshit. One side tried to get rid of student loan debt and the other side said no. One side is fighting for equal right for all races/genders/color etc and the other side says no. It goes on and on like this. Give me a break.
Abortion rights were repealed under Democrats, trans rights are being repealed under Democrats, police budgets have increased in response to BLM, and non-stop war is completely bipartisan.
Both sides ARE bad, just because one of them sometimes offers tepid opposition doesn’t make them good. Democrats are not on your side either.
In fact Obama campaigned on codifiying abortion rights but when he entered office he admitted its not a priority for his administration.
Obama was peak liberalism. All talk, no show.
and several war crimes
What good is being a liberal if you cant have a little warcrimes as a treat?
Abortion rights were repealed because Trump got 3 partisan supreme court justices appointed.
Then pack the courts, codify abortion rights into federal law, do some executive order bullshit, or fuck it, abolish the supreme court entirely. There’s a lot Democrats CAN do but aren’t. If we’re being very charitable, then they value made-up rules over your human rights. That’s the party you want representing you?
Packing the courts sets a precedent the next republican can just pack it the other direction. Before we know it we have hundreds of supreme court justices.
Any law passed by congress can be struck down by the same supreme court as an over reach to state rights. Nevermind democrats barely have a simple majority, and can’t get past a filibuster. 3 of their simple majority come from heavily red states (Brown, Manchin, and Tester) and are up for reelection next year. Almost no way they’d vote for it, meaning they’d likely not even get it passed.
Executive order bullshit only goes for the executive branch. Not legislative or judicial. Biden could wind up impeached for over reach at worst, but have it struck down at best, just like student loans were struck down by the supreme court, which was far more closer to the executive than abortion rights.
The supreme court is constitutionally created, and you can’t modify the constitution without a 2/3rds of congress and 3/4ths of state legislatures. Democrats barely have a majority in congress, and only 19 state legislatures.
It really is not that simple. If people had not been abstaining because ‘both parties are the same’ and Trump had never been elected, then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
I agree they’re not as liberal as they should be, but the people who are voting are conservative. Until more leftists start voting, the politicians will not represent them and fascists will keep getting elected with only 20% of the population voting for them.
So pack the courts and then write laws to set things in stone in their favor. If Democrats don’t do it, then they’re leaving the door open for Republicans to do it. Or just have hundreds of judges, who cares? What’s the worst that could happen, our rights could be taken away? Already happening.
They could also eliminate the filibuster and arguably should have done it ages ago. And they have a majority, why are your expectations so low? Demand more from them while you can.
Biden has already done some executive order bullshit to protect abortion rights and I’m saying that he should do more. The 3 branches of government aren’t discrete and there’s lots of stuff that he has the power to do but isn’t doing, like allowing abortions to be done on federal property.
And the supreme court as it is now isn’t constitutional. It was not designed to have judicial supremacy, but has grown over time to effectively become a branch of government in its own right. One that’s completely undemocratic and unaccountable to the American people. We can use the same reasoning that was used to overturn Roe v. Wade to strip the supreme court of its power without amending the constitution at all.
I don’t think it’s fair to pin all the blame for American politics on Trump. Our issues run far deeper than that and he’s more of a symptom than a cause. Also, most people DIDN’T vote for him. He LOST the popular vote, but got to be president anyway because this county is rigged when it comes to voting. How can you say that all people need to do is vote when their votes matter so little?
Btw communists define liberalism as the ideology that supports capitalism. Democrats and Republicans are both liberals.
If the only other real option is the Republican party then 110% yes.
Abort the court!
What an absurdly simplistic view of things. All you’re doing with this “both sides” bullshit is encouraging more people to sit out the process which is how we got here in the first place. Shame on you, do fucking better.
That’s interesting. After I got done sitting out (in 2016, cause fuck Hilary), I voted for Biden (after Bernie dropped out) to get rid of the orange monster, and now I’m advocating for ranked-choice voting and additional parties. I’m more active than ever. Dems are bad. GOP is worse. I want true Left parties. Your rhetoric shames my desire for more options. Shame on you!
lol you twit. Don’t sit out any elections. Hillary would have been literally infinitely better than Trump.
A pet rock would have been better than trump.
Good luck with RCV, I think it’s probably a good idea, we use it in primaries in NYC and it’s done fuckall that’s been good so far.
But get off your moral high horse and pick the thing that does the least harm if you can’t find any positives.
Hey so I am empathetic to your point, but also have some disagreements.
I voted for Biden, and will again. But both sides are bad. One side is definitely worse, but doesn’t change the fact that dems are status quo, pandering, old money pearl clutchers who greatly benefit off of for profit criminal justice, and the suppression of working class. They are not my ally.
I’m really tired of the “perfect is the enemy of good” dnc party line, while we allow good enough to be enemy of better.
Just my thoughts. Also alot of the liberals act like this is sports or some shit. If you browse the conservative communities and the liberal ones, both sides are literally just mirroring eachother, instead of going after the people who put us here in the first place.
I’m a lefty, and american, and the politics here are rigged. I don’t really blame the people who sit out tbh. They’re up against a power, that quite frankly, will take a fair amount of upheaval to take care of. And no one wants to do that. It’s a shitty state of affairs.
I really hope we can get money out of politics, and have viable 3rd parties…but tbh, the dnc would try to stop that, so…they aren’t my true ally, just cause the other side is worse.
Our voting system (first past the post, winner take all) is keeping us in the two party system better than anything else the dnc could do. Let’s see them support ranked choice or similar.
Oh shut the fuck up man if you’re not seeing one hand wash the other on the ruling class shutting that down, you never will. The democrats never intended to pass student loan debt relief, or they wouldn’t have softballed something they KNEW the Supreme Court would shut down.
“The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.” – Julius Nyerere
Exactly and even if the Dems won the student debt relief, it’s such a little and temporary measure that no way addresses the root cause of the issue.
But of course, many people only look at Biden’s website and think that’s all you need to know about politics.
Give ME a break.
Oh, that website that’s ALREADY a whole pack of lies? That only exists on the Internet Archive bc the DNC knew leaving it up would make it easier for the proles to beat on them? That bullshit-assed website?
Both sides are bad though. They are both neoliberals pieces of shit that care infinitely more about their corporate donors than they do about the people. Heck, they only throw scrums to people to pretend that they care.
You are correct that they are both inadequate for facing the crises of our time, but Republicans are choosing all of the worst options. Don’t pretend like an idiot is anywhere near as bad as a literal demon.
That’s an insult to mentally challenged people and demons everywhere!
You are correct that they are both inadequate for facing the crises of our time
The only part of your comment that makes sense and you should have stopped there because everything you said after that is by definition wrong when preceded by this statement.
I repeat, they are both neoliberals pieces of shit that only care about their pockets and we should get rid of both and establish a communist party.
“Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results”
-Margaret Atwood
Neither side tried to get rid of student loan debt. One side just pretended to try.
They tried metaphysically and still failed.
This is an instance and thread I can get behind.
Ah. How refreshing from the reddit think.
I typically don’t downvote but here you are just factually wrong. “to get rid of student loan debt” would mean to abolish and pass legislation that actually ended all student loan debt in present and future. A feeble attempt at a ‘one-time only’ debt relief with no further policies or plans to eliminate all future educational costs is just a puppet show. I personally would’ve benefited from the debt relief, but would’ve preferred them addressing the rising costs and accessibility of higher education (the root of the problem).
Instead we got a repeal of AA and a move that would’ve benefited loan companies with a side effect that could possibly make getting future loans for under-privileged individuals that much harder (or more dangerous if loan companies decided to give out increasingly worse contracts if they believe the government will step in and pay the horrendous bills). There are better metrics to compare the parties with, “equal rights” is not one of them as they won’t ever exist while class disparity is so rampant.
Equal rights isn’t a new developing issue, here’s a quote from over 60 years ago,
The assistant director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Hyman Bookbinder, in a frank statement on December 29, 1966, declared that the long-range costs of adequately implementing programs to fight poverty, ignorance and slums will reach one trillion dollars. He was not awed or dismayed by this prospect but instead pointed out that the growth of the gross national product during the same period makes this expenditure comfortably possible. It is, he said, as simple as this: “The poor can stop being poor if the rich are willing to become even richer at a slower rate.” Furthermore, he predicted that unless a “substantial sacrifice is made by the American people,” the nation can expect further deterioration of the cities, increased antagonisms between races and continued disorders in the streets. He asserted that people are not informed enough to give adequate support to anti-poverty programs, and he leveled a share of the blame at the government because it “must do more to get people to understand the size of the problem.” (source, bold by me)
Equal rights “advocates” love to posture and hand-wave historical figures like Dr. King, who rightly pointed out the next step to real equality in his book titled, “Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?”.
One of the central themes of the book’s messages is that of hope. King reflects upon the Civil Rights Movement. He discusses the question of what African-Americans should do with their new freedoms found in laws such as the Voting Rights Act of 1965. He concludes that all Americans must unite in order to fight poverty and create an equality of opportunity. King emphasizes that he is neither a Marxist nor a doctrinaire socialist; he instead advocates for a united social movement that would act within both the Republican and Democratic parties. (synopsis from wiki)
It goes “on and on” like this because it’s all a show, the steps and problems have been laid bare for decades in the U.S. with no meaningful impact for the causes and class disparity is only getting worse. If the democrats in charge actually passed legislation that addressed inequality, then they wouldn’t have anything to dangle in front of the donkey.
edit: If you’re gonna give a downvote (probably who I was replying to), don’t be a coward and at least bring some conversation to the table with your viewpoints. I’m just gonna have to assume your feelings were hurt and that’s the only recourse you have if not.
This gets at it beautifully. The point is that Dems show a good effort but don’t actually create meaningful change. It’s theater.
It’s not “both sides bad”, it’s “they’re all on the same side”. The majority of Amerikans and non-Amerikans realize this. You are shilling for the bourgeoisie against the proletariat.
This both sides is bad argument is scary because it can cause people to become indifferent. It’s scary for minorities. One side is actively trying to get rid of minorities or marginalize them.
Yeah I get that in the context of the working class they are both bad but that’s not the only way people are categorized. People’s lives are literally being ruined due to the abortion ban and the regression in trans rights and it’s clear one side is pushing for it way more than the other.
US politics is one big WWE show and you’ve taken the bait that the democrats actually “tried”. When you realize just how much isn’t being done that could be done, and then look at all the same big donor lobbyist money they take in every year, it starts to make sense why the democrats are always “sooo close” to radical change. It’s deliberate and I’m tired of people thinking it isn’t
Nice copium lib.
One side tried to get rid of student loan debt and the other side said no.
$10,000 or $50,000 is hardly getting rid of student loan debt and there are way more pressing issues like the fact medical debt is still the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US and mainstream dems are still balking at universal health care.
Maybe do a bit more research next time before you comment.
Don’t argue with the tankies. They literally have no moral compass.
We’re the ones with no moral compass; when the democrats oversee slavery in the Department of Corrections(while cutting the police fatter and fatter checks), oversee familial separation and rape in the internment camps at the border(while cutting ICE fatter and fatter checks), and gleefully play merchant of death kicking obscenely-priced contract after obscenely-priced contract to the military-industrial complex. Is the F-35 even capable of flying an operational sortie yet? Or was that just a ten year waste of billions and billions of dollars?
Okay, you fuckin hypocrite, okay. Sure. Posture all you like. None of it even fuckin matters anyway when your party will GLEEFULLY torch the earth sucking every last drop of oil out of it while SWEARING we’re gonna keep under 2C. Can’t wait for all your shit to burn.
because libs like you are sooooo rich in morality, bombing global southern countries to no avail, supporting coups in countries that democratically elected socialists, never actually getting anything done to make peoples’ lives less of a hellhole, being racist against russians and chinese people, supporting literal fascists and even outright allying with fascists (spain).
yeah, you guys have suuuuch a rich moral compass. thank you for demonstrating just how morally rich you people are. y’all should look into the mirror and feel fucking ashamed of yourselves.
This is exactly why liberals don’t get shit done. You are too focused on optics rather than material reality.
Fisk400 goes to Walmart. On the shelves, a product catches his eye “Wow, I can’t believe this AC unit is so cheap! Capitalism is great.”
A Congolese child smiles. His job in a rare earth excavation site made that AC unit possible, and cheap.
The child looks at the sky “I hope you’re happy, white master”, he says before he gets pushed back to work. It is 40C in the mine, he gets no AC. But at least wealthier people get to have it.
Fisk400 buys the cheap AC. “Who cares about climate change anyway, it’s hot outside”. Then, he sees something else a few aisles down: cheap meat. “Wow, that’s a great deal!”. He grabs a few packs of beef.
Somewhere in Argentina, a cattle rancher smiles. “I hope you’re happy, white master” says the man. He has never tasted beef; it’s too expensive for him. But he’s glad that someone else gets to enjoy it, at least.
Fisk never even heard the child and man, drowned by his new shiny purchases and the feeling of accomplishment they give him.
Upon leaving the store, Fisk400 pretends to not see the 75 year old greeter who is forced to stand there all day and say hi. “Oh god, I hope he doesn’t try to talk to me” he thinks as he darts to the exit, his products in hand. He can’t wait to try them out – it’s his god-given right to consume whatever is sold in stores with no further considerations.
Then, cool and cozy, he logs onto Lemmy. “Tankies have no moral compass”, he says matter-of-factly.
The Clintons had literal slaves. Like, the still-alive Clintons. Fuck you, devil.
Why must people always misinterpret this?
No, leftists are not trying to appeal to homophobic white people with this.
They’re reminding you that Democrats will still oppress the working class irrespective of your race, gender, or orientation.
Though don’t kid yourself, the Democratic Party still oppresses black and queer folks when they think they don’t need black and queer votes.
No, leftists are not trying to appeal to homophobic white people with this
Is that how people interpret this? Wew
The brain worms are so deep, they’re tape worms that have made their way up through the host.
There’s a surprising amount of Republicans that talk about the “Uniparty”
Elaborate, please? Not sure I understand what you mean
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/17/steve-bannon-populist-ralph-nader-215839/
It’s a word they use to describe “where the Republicans and Democrats seem to be fusing together.”
Thanks! Well it is only logical, they serve the same interests
Indeed, it’s funny how only the extremes of US politics can recognize that
redditors in this thread, go back
no u
nah
Redditors? Down with them!
I agree. I was a redditor. But now I’m done. Fuck Spez. (Hence why I said “no u”. The redditors that are here don’t want to go back)
You might want to figure out the politics of the community you’ve stumbled into, then.
fuck all these liberals appealing to “dems make things better for the working class”. the working class does not start and end at the amerikkkan border motherfucker.
the Dems being for the working class is an old folk tale that just won’t die
Important point. From the point of view of 95,5% of humanity USA present nearly uniform face regardless of who is in power. And this goes not only for the victims of US but for their vassals too. Barely anyone outside US gives a shit about the US political theatre, even the analysis of the comprador euro think tanks smells with indifference under the flimsy mask of engagement.
Can confirm.
- Post mentions U.S. political parties
- Post mentions BLM, started in the U.S. in response to the U.S. police murdering a U.S. citizen
- Post has a rose emoji, frequently used by leftists in the U.S.
“Man, why would anyone think we’re talking about the U.S.?”
Not sure what you’re on about. The comment is clearly at liberals in this thread trying to appeal to “benefits” for the “working class” without acknowledging many of these “benefits” come at the cost of the exploited global south. Thinking that the working class struggle starts and ends at one nation’s borders and is not part of an international struggle is braindead at best, fascist at worst. Not sure why I’m explaining this to someone named @MarxMadness.
Thinking that the working class struggle starts and ends at one nation’s borders
No one is saying this. People are seeing the U.S. context and responding to that, then others are ignoring the context to argue with them.
got it, severe case of liberalism. hope it isn’t terminal. not sure how/why you signed up for lemmygrad but stick around maybe you’ll learn some things.
Bullshit like yours makes this place more like reddit, not less.
Okay, what is with all the Democrat-defending libs in this thread. Reddit-tier logic.
How were they even admitted to Lemmygrad, I wonder?
USA are a capitalist dystopia with two parties, one is a rightwing neo-liberal and the other are Nazis as is
Which is which?
Normally Democrats a right wing and Republicans Nazis, but the differences are not clear defined.
They kinda get confused by all this good-party bad-party dynamic too. Hot take: both are bad co-… ehm, parties
Both are wings of the same bird.
I dunno. I’d say the Nazis are pretty obvious. Dems are center right, but only the fakers appear as Nazis. Then they break and become Indies.
I’d say the Nazis are pretty obvious.
Indeed they are.
A yes, hugging a Jew and using a background on the colors of the American flag. You can’t get any more Nazi than that.
Because we all know that no Jewish person has ever been a fascist, nor has the heckin’ wholesome state of Israel ever engaged in Nazi-like ethnic cleansing.
And just look at these wholesome Ukrainian crusaders against the evil RuZZian imperialists! Just like a marvel movie, amirite?
Hugging a Nazi collaborating far right crook and fellow mass murderer.
Meh, only one wants to take away my rights and the other one wants to give me free healthcare and cancel student debt. Not saying that the one that wants to protect my rights doesn’t have problems, but the 2 parties sure as shit are not the same.
Incredible how that’s not only not what OP of this thread but also somehow totally naïvely buys into Democrat rhetoric about things they’re totally going to do, for sure.
They have done these things.
Have you seen any vote results, to see which party votes for what? I thought not.
Last I checked, dems voted to fund the police, ICE, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and Raytheon; so I don’t owe them shit as far as recognition goes beyond what it takes me to empty my bladder. Why’m I going to support people who have no interest in rectifying this country’s manifold injustices? Or are you just gonna keep pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining?
I’m hearing crickets from the cracker gallery…
the other one
wants togive me free healthcare and cancel student debt.More like “runs on obviously popular policy proposals and never carries through because they didn’t care in the first place.” Just like how republicans run on ending wars and bringing down gas prices and end up doing the opposite.
Y’all working class libs need to read State and revolution. And reform or revolution.
state and revolution is actually quite short, but still you’re asking too much of them
if 1 does look into it, ill be happy
Damn, looks like this post attracted all the liberals.
Alright this comment section was fun but reddit liberals will never change their minds on anything (if they did they wouldn’t try to make Lemmy into Reddit), so I’m locking this.
PS: if you support the democrats I hope they drone strike your house like they drone striked a Pakistani wedding since you seem to like them so much :)
I do wonder about Democrats though. Part of me thinks the “spoilers” that we see like Lieberman, Sinema, and Manchin are there specifically so Democrats can say, “Aww shucks, we tried folks, guess we can’t get that shiny new thing we promised you. Oh well, we’ll just give up on that idea.” Meanwhile Republicans ramming through the most unpopular shit in the world every chance they can get, whereas Dems don’t seem to try hard enough on issues that seem to have plenty of popular support.
That’s the Designated Villain playbook. As long as there’s just one or two a year, in a field where typically everyone is vetted, double-vetted, and receipt-checked, the pork train trundles on unobstructed.
It’s not that Dems don’t try hard enough. They’re one faction in the organising committee of the ruling class. They’re not trying to work for the working class at all.
Just look at the defense budget every year that easily dwarfs that of other countries (and continues to grow!) It passes with no contest from either party.
Sanders sure seemed to have the right mindset for most important issues. Would have loved to have seen that alternate reality in 2016.
It just shows how much the system is rigged. Less likeable and less popular Hillary sabotaged his campaign allowing trump to win. Even if Bernie did win and started making positive change I wouldn’t be surprised if he got whacked like JFK.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that Bernie would have been able to make as much of an impact as he wanted. Congress is more responsible for long term changes than the president and Bernie’s ideals are left of most of the Democratic party, so I don’t think they would have been as cooperative as he/we would have liked.
Also, if he was elected, we still would have elected the oldest president ever. I’d rather our government wasn’t a retirement home.
Unless we get enough legislators that share Sanders’ positions, him being president is a waste.
Except that’s not going to happen because the corporate lobbyists that fund most winning campaigns for both parties would never allow it.
This is why Lenin calls liberal democracy the best possible shell for capitalism - a single or small group of people can’t change the system. The power is split up enough that capitalism stays in power, but concentrated enough that capital can control it.
Little Debbie really screwed the party with her hard on towards Clinton.
The problems with that party go a lot deeper than one woman.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that tweet before, but I can’t remember where
Most Democrat politicians are neo-liberals, meaning they are conservatives by all global standards.
We need progressives to take over the Dem party. If you are young and progressive, especially if you are in a shitty dead-end job, run for office. Do it. Local or national.
Sign up, go through the process, announce it for fun on social media. If nothing happens, it was a funny, enlightening experience. There is no upper limit to what can be accomplished if you actually start winning races, though.
You cannot fix the Democrat party from the inside. Shit, you cannot fix the USA from the inside. It’s not broken, it’s working perfectly as designed. You can’t vote your way out of this shit. Not if you had 500 years to do it instead of 20.
We had several great progressives running in last years primary and general up near Seattle. All were crushed by incumbents.
Guess folks just like the way things are.
Honestly, once you hit 25 or whatever pick a party and run. Green or libertarian would be easiest. Whatever fits where you live. It gives you a different perspective on elections.
Most Democrat politicians are neo-liberals, meaning they are conservatives by all global standards.
This is the most brain damaged talking point, the Democrats are more left than the vast majority of the globe and Republicans are somewhere in the center. Unless your globe only consists of Canada, Scandinavia, and New Zealand then the Democrats aren’t conservative
My friend, you are in the wrong space. This is a space for people who are actually interested in studying political economy, not bad faith morons.
You’re literally a fucking tankie who supports Russia invading Ukraine. You’re just outing yourself here as a bad faith moron.
You have it flipped, we don’t support NATO’s war of aggression against Russia.
Ukrainian President Yanukovych chose to have closer ties with Russia, which resulted in the Euromaidan coup in 2013-14, which directly caused this war.
I support the people of Ukraine and would like to see peace. The Zelensky government should end the war and cede Russia the land whose people want to return to Russia anyways.
Actually brain damaged
Maybe we should call y’all tankies since y’all keep starting wars everywhere and have no interest in peace
I don’t even know what a lot of the stuff means anymore tbh. I just consider myself economically classically liberal and true centrist on social issues
The people focusing hard on the social far left and far right are distracting people from the fact that the government is not helping out the common person economically.
Frankly I think inflation is kind of here to stay for a while as the US painfully weans itself out of China and a world with a bunch of cheap former Soviet raw material inputs, nevermind a global wheat shortage due to the situation in Ukraine.
The fed really does have to slowly jack up rates to create a bigger buffer for the next hard recession. What this means, I my very limited understanding, is that everything just costs more until supply is consolidated back home and nearby places like Canada, Mexico, and some Central American countries
I don’t even know what a lot of the stuff means anymore tbh. I just consider myself economically classically liberal and true centrist on social issues
The economics understander (as per 7th grade social studies) has entered the chat.
The people focusing hard on the social far left and far right are distracting people from the fact that the government is not helping out the common person economically.
If you’re talking about culture war crap, then sure, I agree. It’s manufactured outrage to distract from class issues.
The fed really does have to slowly jack up rates to create a bigger buffer for the next hard recession.
So you acknowledge the government isn’t helping the working class, and then proceed to support the government not helping? Do you believe in Reaganomics by any chance?
This is about the best summation of the parties that I’ve seen. Made me chuckle and call my partner to have a look. Well done.
Democrats want universal healh care, child care, to cancel student loan debt, don’t want to eliminate the LGBTQ community among other things, and are constantly stymied by the right wing. Then dumbfucks go ‘hurr duur, both parties are the same, don’t vote’ and the same shit happens. The last time Dems ran the show we got the ACA and people who never had a shot at insurance got it, medical bankruptcies went down etc. It was a big win, and you forget that. Fuck your all sides are the same.
Is there a non-political version of c/memes?
Not everything here is political, but you know you’re on Lemmygrad.ml right?
Ah I see, I wasn’t aware, I’m new here. This was the default c/memes I was set up with when I signed up.
