I just want to vent a bit - I started seeing someone a few weeks ago. Old fling that I ran into through some friends that got rekindled, and I was excited that it seemed like more than just casual hookups this time. But there were some yellow flags I ignored that turned out to be red flags, and now I’m feeling frustrated and hurt.
Dude for real dropped the line that men are more “capable” and “logical” on me. That gender studies are “indoctrination.” I told him we should probably stop seeing each other if that’s really what he thinks. It wouldn’t be logical for me to keep seeing someone that thinks lesser of me, now, would it?
I’m grateful to have some guy friends that I turned to after I left, cuz I wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode, but I know it’s not true or helpful. Just like there are women out there that have internalized misogyny, there’s feminist men, enbies, etc. We’re all just people and we’re not monoliths beholden to differences in biology. This is just sexist, manosphere bullshit in particular
Anyway. I’m still feeling angry and wanted to put it out there for some support and solidarity. Anyone have a recent win they’d like to share or something?
ETA: Thank you so much for the conversation y’all! I’ve been trying to keep up but I gotta get some sleep. I’ll check in later but hope everyone has a good day. Keep up the empowerment! 💜
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*. I had one once tell me that I was lucky to have a pretty face because my body would put most men off, and then he expected to get laid. Like, what? My dude that is not how any of this works.
But experiences like this help us learn to spot those red flags earlier. And frankly it can also be a self-esteem boost, like you clearly respect yourself enough to have kicked this guy to the curb and that’s something to feel great about! You know you’re worthy of better and that you didn’t bring this on yourself. Meanwhile he’s just got another in probably a long line of romantic failures that are entirely of his own doing.
Have to admit, and I don’t mean to pry, but I am SO curious how he responded when you laid it out logically for him like that.
Anyway, solidarity. So much solidarity.
* well ok, I do know. but it’s very very silly.
Oh, that line I gave him about logic was one of the last things I said as I finished picking up my stuff to walk out the door. I followed up with “it’s been fun - good luck.” He had just kept digging in and I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
Thank you for sharing your experience, though it fucking sucks. You’re right that I do feel empowered for recognizing my worth. Just hate that it’s coming from mistreatment, you know? Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜
Good on you for walking.
I told him I’m not taking it upon myself to educate him. He can read a book or two about it
As a guy who has seen several women friends fall for the “I can change him” mindset, well done. It is not your job to fix the world view of a person who does not want to.
I remember an old joke:
“How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?”
‘One, but the light bulb has got to want to change.’
I know it sucks right now but at least he showed his cards early and you didn’t have to waste too much time on him.
I love the joke, thank you. I’m feeling excited to move on:)
I’m curious what the yellow flags were. Did he lead you into the weird misogyny like systematically, trying to ease you into accepting it? If you remember anything he said where it might have suggested he had these feelings, I’d love to hear it.
And before you feel bad or anything like that, we’ve ALL ignored yellow flags when we think something might go somewhere and we’re into it. It’s like biological lol
Ok this turned into a novel, so buckle up I guess lol. Yeah, there was a lot said over the month that I pushed back on. There’s nuance to it though, right? It’s not like the manosphere content is built entirely on lies. Like, one of the first things that stuck out to me is him saying that when men lean into their masculinity then women can embrace their femininity. That can be true for some couples, but it’s obviously not universal and is more often fluid.
He talked about his sister a few times, a psych major that I didn’t know identifies as non-binary until he showed me their Facebook page by chance and I saw their pronouns listed. But he didn’t care. He said they were “radicalized” after they went to college.
Another one: “choices have consequences” when discussing abortion, even though he did agree it should be available, it’s just “morally gray” for him. His ex had one and he said he thought she secretly wanted him to push her to keep it. They broke up shortly after.
Anyway, most of the rest of it was just sprinkled in, and culminated in the conversation yesterday. It actually started the night before, I got upset and wanted to shut down the conversation cuz it was all really building up, but we repaired, went to hang out with our friend, and it wasn’t until later it hit me he’d said that thing about men traditionally being the head of the household because they’re more capable “if you look at the results.” I dwelled on it forever after he fell asleep, journaled about it on my phone and had my responses ready the next morning.
Wow. Well I’m sure he’ll make some woman soooo happy one day (I mean, “woman happy,” so cooking, cleaning, churning out progeny, etc.)
So funny that he didn’t see the logic at hiding his misogynistic world view. The point, i guess, was not to school you on logic but to test how much crap you’d put up with.
I hope he actually took a moment or two of self reflection and understands that he himself was not displaying much logic in the relationship. Who knows, maybe he’ll even question one or two of his misogynistic beliefs.
I’m sorry you had to put up with that but at least you’ve learned what to look out for.
Fuck yeah lol you’re a badass. I would stammer something about needing to go and think of all that in the shower later.
To be fair, it started the night before and I stayed up journaling on my phone for a while after he fell asleep 😅
Here’s to finding empowerment through healthy means and healthy partners 💜
Hear, hear! I read your other replies and am glad you’re feeling motivated to keep going. It’s hard sometimes, but it’s worth it when you find the right person.
I don’t know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*.
Quite simply, men like this are not looking for a partner, they are looking for a servant they can fuck.
They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.
Good on Op for walking away.
Or they are just looking for a repository for their negative feelings. Their own personal dumping ground, if you will. It’s great that these men (and it’s not just men) expose themselves with flat footed negging early on.
They have not progressed past adolescent dominance games.
Amen to that.
A lot of the PUA routine is about putting women down, so they think saying that sort of shit is cool.
If it helps, those guys treat other guys the same way.
Also if it helps there are women who treat other people this way too.
This seems akin to racism to me. My favorite quote about this is from President Lyndon B. Johnson. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
My dad isn’t this kind of guy, but he is an old white guy that watches Fox News. And it’s the same thing with them. He has bought any number of supplements advertised on Fox News, and believes wholeheartedly that one day the world will finally understand the deep wisdom he believes in.
I don’t believe you can categorize people as a simple either or. “You’re a red piller or not.” “You’re a conservative or a liberal.” But I do think you can apply a personality type to people. And it sounds like you sussed out a guy who really needs to feel superior to other people. I fucking hate those kind of people. So good for you, there are a lot of people who may have never figured it out, or weren’t socially aware enough to see it. It sucks this turned out to be what it was, but celebrate the fact you’re a strong enough person not to put up with it
You may already know about this but your description of sexism as akin to racism made me want to mention intersectionality. It’s an analytical framework used to describe social relations as it pertains to privilege and discrimination. There’s a good reason you felt that way. Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny, which is considered to be the original form of oppression
Many feminist theorists pose that most/all forms of oppression (racism, homophobia, transphobia, classism, etc.) are modeled after misogyny
Could you possibly give a brief synopsis of why they think misogyny is the base model rather than (eg) racism? Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense, but I’m curious about the basic theory.
Patriarchal society developed before the concepts of race we use today. Much of how society was shaped stemmed from the tribes and clans of the pre modern era.
How pre modern are we talking? Because it seems like homo sapiens vs neanderthal would’ve had more cross cultural discrimination than men and women within the same species.
Because cultures made up exclusively of one race were still misogynistic. And because there’s actual physical differences between the sexes that are used to wrongly justify discriminating against women.
A monoculture being misogynistic doesn’t really show that the base model is misogyny. It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.
It seems like you’d have to have a culture with mixed races early on that discriminated against women before other races to decisively prove the point.
Your previous comment:
Considering many countries afford rights to different races before women (eg black men could vote in the US before women) it does make sense
I assumed you understood your own point that you made, so I’m not sure what you’re asking for now.
Others have already answered your question but I thought I’d leave you with an article about it in case you want more information. There’s a lot more to be said on this than a few comments and the odd article but it’s a good enough place to start
Thank you for your comment. I’ve heard of intersectionality but didn’t quite understood the idea behind it, as it was only in passing mentioned.
Now watching a talk by Kimberlé Crenshaw
I’d go a step further: all is modeled after power. If you feel* you have more power it’s because the other part is “less than you”, not because you both have different strengths.
*Feel, not that it’s real.
Everything I wrote is about ways systems exercise coercive/domineering/oppressive power. They’re not modeled after power, they’re a consequence of heirarchies and the inherent power imbalances that are necessary for hierarchical power structures to maintain their existence
That’s a good quote. And by good, I mean helpful in understanding the cycle of assholery.
I think my response would be “and yet, so many men still fall for shysters like Andrew Tate”.
Well done on getting out. He sounds like a
dadsad case.Oh, that was one of the yellow flags! I mentioned that I’d been following the case with Tate, and he’s a sex trafficker. Homeboy said “well it’s not proven in court” like…sir lol. Fucking yikes. Definitely not ignoring that in the future
Didn’t he literally brag about sex trafficking??
Yes 😭 but I figured at the time not everyone has seen or heard that. The only reason I know is I follow Bruce Rivers on YouTube
like a dad case.
That is one wild autocorrect.
Ooh, I figured it was some new slang…
Freudian autocorrect.
Have you met his dad?
The Internet lets all the village idiots find each other
But it also lets us all find each other
yeah that’s what they said
It even let’s the village idiots, of village idiots find each other.
Glad you dodged this bullet.
I had a coworker-friend who was too into right wing Internet stuff, and trying to deprogram him was hard work. People spend hours soaking up glossy garbage and find communities of like minded people. I think I only made any progress at all with that guy because we were already friendly over work and video game shared experiences.
The guy from your post is probably on some “manosphere” website complaining about how his misfortune right now. Maybe one day he’ll realize he’s the primary architect of his poor outcomes.
If it helps anything, I can imagine men usually assume they are as an individual more logical and capable than other men as well. Projecting this on women is just even easier as other man will agree.
Yes! I had noticed he was being a dick to his roommate at one point, who’s our mutual friend. Really caught me off guard. Fucked up product of how men can be socialized in sexist societies. I just feel bad for everyone in that dynamic, even the guys putting others down, cuz they think it’ll help them get their needs met but it just shoots them in the foot. And of course victims don’t deserve that treatment to begin with. We should be lifting each other up, validating that we’re all capable and logical
Fwiw, on social media, if one doesn’t obviously show which gender they are, they will usually be assumed to be a male. There are more women around here than some people think, and they are always adressed as bro, homie, dude, my man, and so on. So, apparently, the differences are not always as obvious as some people assume. Edited a word to correct english
I’ve actually used this before to argue with someone about gender v sex, and it can be fun when I’m not romantically interested lol. Just play into it on anonymous accounts that they can’t know your gender, so why assign it at all if it’s not explicitly stated? The person I argued with eventually admitted they were just scared of making a mistake in social settings, so I encouraged them to practice. It doesn’t take that long to get used to, and it’s exactly how you prevent mistakes!
But then I added in another comment, we’re human and there’s room for error. It’s the people that intentionally misgender that are the assholes
Interesting, and i agree; i never even try to assume gender when talking to people online.
As a side note, apart from logic and rationality, i never noticed women being more emotional than men. Also, from what i’ve seen online, men often are quite talkative and the first to break the ice or share an opinion or experience.
But in the end, i prefer to look at individuals and try not to focus on labels.
For sure. Not to say there aren’t differences between genders, but yeah, I tried pointing out to the guy from my post that we’re all emotional creatures, and ignoring that can have pretty damaging effects. He did try to say women are more emotional along with men being more logical, and of course my reaction was to feel angry at the injustice and explain that. Feels much healthier and logical for me to listen to that emotion and walk away. Now I’m getting all talkative lol. Think that shows women (well, I’m nonbinary AFAB) may talk more when they feel safe, and I appreciate you contributing to that:)
Much healthier indeed; one will never convince people who are not open to other viewpoints anyway, and it would just suck the energy right out of you.
My own username explicitly alludes to my gender and I still get called a man about half the time. I don’t really care or anything, but I think it’s funny
Wait, you are a woman? Just kidding. I noticed that many people, myself often included, often don’t read that carefully, or don’t pay that much attention to the usernames. It wouldn’t be the first time i’m typing a reply, say, to answer a question and only then notice that the person already added something in their text, like: i already tried this, and my reply is useless and i delete the draft.
I also don’t really care that much that people assume my gender, but whether you read carefully or not; why assume everyone here is male. I see a lot of guys commenting that there are not many women on lemmy; well duh, if you assume everyone is male… I always try to reply to people without assuming gender, but apparently, for some people that is hard.
Yeah, I mean you’re absolutely right. There is a male default assumption we tend to have. Maybe it’s a quirk of language, but I think it’s certainly more cultural. Our preconceived notions of “person in internet” is masculine, even though women use the internet just as much and make up half the population. The only time it’s not the case is when you’re in places that are exclusively for women, or in places where the hobby is so dominantly feminine
For simple shit like this, I don’t think it’s particularly harmful or malicious. We invent a person we’re talking to online, and the more often invented person is a man. It’s more a symptom of the greater culture at large, and effectively just a part of our language. We have “they” but I think there’s also a gender-neutral “he” that we just don’t recognize that arose from the male-as-default idea. Intentionally misgendering, on the other hand, is 100% a shitty thing to do, but that’s an argument on a different topic anyway
Or at least, we are all capable of being incapable and illogical. We are all just human after all.
Of course, give ourselves room for error, but we also learn from it
I agree with this thought and it’s precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af) who come up with this idea
Uhhh… I mean, not to defend this asshole, but isn’t this just as sexist a thought?
I think you may be interpreting “men” as all men, but I think the post meant, “precisely men that aren’t smart enough (or narcissistic af)”
That is, the men who say things like this tend to be men that aren’t smart enough or are simply too narcissistic to realize it’s wrong.
I think you’re right! I actually realised this a while after I reread this but I never really bothered to write about the epiphany 😅
In my experience, the real thought bubble is probably closer to “Look at all these people who have their shit so together. I’m such a loser. I hope they can’t figure out that I’m faking it.”
Edit to add:
The people who really are losers (as opposed to just believing they are) put others down to try to build themselves up.
You know, I’m something of a man myself…
…and that dude’s a dick.
That’s fucking rough. The manosphere is such a sad thing because it’s con artists and assholes profiting off selling men the idea that they can be worse people. Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
I will second that there are great feminist men out there. My metamour is an amazing guy who doesn’t tolerate any toxic masculinity or misogyny and clearly tries to lead by example on the front of being masculine as fuck in a healthy and positive way.
Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.
This is such a great line. It works for any toxic worldview/belief system.
Good on you. Next time you want to go “fuck all men” remember that would be stooping as low as a misogynist, only on the other side of the road.
The silver lining is that pain helps people see flag’s true colours better. So you will (I hope) not waste time with someone else showing similar warning signs next time.
There’s technically not a single wrong word with your comment in my opinion. But, respectfully, don’t you feel it reads as a bit condescending and admonishing? Especially when rereading the OP and then your comment in succession. The OP said they just wanted to vent a little here but then go on to barely vent at all: they just say they ‘wanted to go into “fuck all men” mode’ but didn’t since they know it’s not true or helpful. As I read it they just felt the (understandable) initial frustration but immediately worked through that feeling like an adult.
Yes, that’s actually why I didn’t reply to them. The first part of the comment comes across like they didn’t read what I wrote directly after, and I’m not interested in repeating myself or getting defensive over having a brief reactionary response to emotional abuse. Thank you 💜
Well I’m sorry it came across that way. I’m not trying to attack you or upset you at all, just hoping to give you a different perspective on why what you did was right. I repeat, what you did was right. I’m glad you have a solid support group irl now and I hope you keep it for life, but from experience that’s not always the case for everyone, and there is also the unfortunate possibility you may have a bad experience with a partner again- which I hope you don’t. But if you do find yourself in that situation, I’m hoping my previous comment helps you see you are better prepared to face such situation again in the future.
I didn’t mean to be condescending or admonishing. Of course OP knows better. OP also mentioned she has a good support group which is what helped in this case. But from experience, sometimes groups and friends come and go, and so do problems with partners. I’m only hoping my comment helps OP see why they were right in doing what they did and maybe give a different perspective to someone else reading the comments.
The “win” is that I see much less if that kind of discourse on Lemmy.
Sorry for you, OP
Yeah, the replies here have been really heartwarming. I’m glad to be here:) thank you
That’s true. It’s definitely not zero but I see it get called out 9 times out of 10. Good work lemmings!
Honestly, back on Reddit I also didn’t see much of this, at least not sorting by highest upvoted.
It was more of a thing on Reddit back in the gamergate era. By 2017 it had faded to smaller communities
You are allowed to get annoyed at an entire gender. Just get annoyed then calm down then move on. Never judge yourself for an intrusive thought. Judge yourself based on what you actually say and actually do.
And good for you for moving on.
Hey, since you asked to share wins we’ve had in this regard:
Not a woman, but something that has occasionally worked for me is sharing this one article. It’s called The magical thinking of guys who love logic.
It sometimes works with those guys that believe that men are inherently more logical than women like the one you mentioned. Though in my experience this article is most effective with atheist men and not so much with religious men, since it has a bit of a focus on criticizing a type of militant online atheism (a superficial type of atheism I might add and one that paradoxically reproduces a sort of puritan mindset masked under progressivism, much like TERFism, sex-negative “progressives” and some other current mindsets). It also works best if the guys on question are already a bit open to criticism (or at least like to pretend they are open-minded) since the article starts with a tone of criticizing right-wing ideologies.
The most emotional people I know have been logic-worshiping men.
Almost like denying your emotion keeps you from checking it.
Anger is clearly not an emotion /s
Ooof. As a former new atheist who still believes in logic, reason, and rationality, this article is the truth. If there’s anything I learned from my time with the New Atheists, it’s that I need other people to help me realize when I’m wrong.
My moment of clarity came when Sam Harris, who I really looked up to, started advocating for torture of Muslims because Islam was inherently bad. That really rubbed me the wrong way, even after 9/11.
Yep. I still value reason and particularly science as one of the important guiding principles in my life, though it can’t be the only one. Empathy, for example, is incredibly important, as is being open to one’s own emotions.
I was lucky to not fall into that movement as a teen though, mostly because I was outside of the US cultural sphere of influence back then I assume.
I’ve bookmarked it to check it out later, sounds interesting af. Thank you!
I’m a dude, what is the manosphere?
Andrew Tate subscribers, people who say “red pilled” a lot and dudes who attribute their lack of admiration from others to their height
Hard to give exact but that should put you in the ballpark
So bizarre, the internet has just opened so many stupid people to various forms of grifters, but the toxic masculinity crowd are the absolute worst. Sorry your old friend turned out to be a turd. Glad you’re smart enough to recognize it and move forward with your life.
You’ll find someone kind and worthwhile - just takes sifting through a fuckload of hay before you find the needle. Unfortunately you found a worm instead of hay this time - gross, but just toss it to the side and keep searching. 💜
Tbh for me it’s been hard to keep putting energy into it, every time I break up with someone else I just feel like all that energy was wasted which is stupid because I definitely learn things from each relationship but god damn I just wanna find my human. ffs. Ngl I turned 30 and was just like well either I grow some thick skin and get on with it or I’m gonna fuckin die alone lmao. So easy to just give up after a shitty breakup and just be single… Idk, no lesson there - just sharing.
You asked for wins so here’s mine - I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about 3 months now and signs are good even post honeymoon-period. She actually cares and doesn’t have gender expectations of me at all, which is refreshing because I work somewhere that I’m basically expected to be masculine and it’s nice to get to be the little spoon occasionally and not have to put on a stupid mask of projected confidence and stoicism I feel like I have to at work. She doesn’t judge me if I cry a little. We both go out of our way to do nice things for each other and it actually feels like it might be a legit partnership - I’m cautiously optimistic this time! ☺️
Just yesterday I was telling a female coworker about how toxic masculinity is such a hard thing to recognize for men and even more difficult to overcome. The example was how the two guys who hold a senior IT position were always fixing problems in a vacuum and not sharing with others how it was fixed or what the problem was. And how that is hurting the whole group.
I absolutely disagree with your guy friend and I am sorry that it worked out like it did. Good for you for making the right choice. I hope you find a much more healthy relationship soon :)
The men I have met that either endorse or handwave-away toxic masculinity are really fragile and often have so many other problems in their lives that maintaining any kind of relationship is impossible, even with other toxic-masculinity-type guys.
